Proposition 54K1141

Projet de loi portant assentiment au Protocole, fait à Bruxelles le 16 mars 2010, modifiant la Convention entre le Royaume de Belgique et la République Hellénique tendant à éviter les doubles impositions et à prévenir l'évasion fiscale en matière d'impôts sur le revenu, signée à Athènes le 25 mai 2004.

General information ¶

Submitted by

MR Swedish coalition

Submission date

June 5, 2015

Official page

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Status

Adopted

Requirement

Simple

Subjects

Greece tax convention tax avoidance double taxation international agreement

Voting ¶

Voted to adopt

CD&V Vooruit LE DéFI ∉ Open Vld N-VA LDD MR PP

Abstained from voting

Groen Ecolo PS | SP PVDA | PTB VB

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Discussion ¶

July 15, 2015 | Plenary session (Chamber of representatives)

Full source

The rapporteur, Ms Lijnen, refers to her written report.

Mr. Speaker, tomorrow we will hold a further debate on the distressing Greece.

This text offers us an opportunity. I have also advocated this in the committee. This text will enable the exchange of information between Greece and Belgium. Unlike before, Belgium can no longer hide itself behind banking secrecy in order not to disclose information about capital placed at Belgian banks to the other contracting party.

So this is an important text, because it means that if the Greek Minister of Finance asks the Belgian Minister of Finance to obtain information about the capital Greeks hold on Belgian accounts, we can provide that information.

Between 2009 and 2014, €70 billion of capital was transferred from Greece. A study by the Bank for International Payments has revealed that Greeks have placed 120 billion euros in tax havens.

That is the same amount as the Belgians have in tax havens, but our national income is four times greater than that of Greece. Thus, it proves that Greece has had a problem with black money, tax evasion and tax evasion in recent years. Everybody will agree with it.

I have proposed to the finance minister in the committee to contact Greece and say that we not only, like this government, confess in words that we want to help Greece, but that we will also do so concretely and that we will, at the simple request of the Greek finance minister, provide all information about the capital that Greeks have on Belgian accounts.

The minister’s response was very laconic: they just need to organize tax amnesty in Greece. I am sorry that I had to determine that.

I asked the same question to the Prime Minister. Minister Reynders gave me at least another answer, but I repeated my question without having received a response from the Prime Minister.

I am asking my question in your presence for the third time.

I ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs, present here: is Belgium prepared, on the basis of this text, which we will adopt tomorrow, to help Greece fight against the capital flight from that country? The measures approved by your government last weekend with regard to the ordinary Greeks, who are already suffering heavily – pensions reduced by 40 %, 200 000 officials dismissed, all official betting –20 %, 50 % to 60 % youth unemployed, the inability to purchase certain medicines – lead to very heavy interference in Greek society for which you are responsible and which you are now seeking to tighten. That is the debate of tomorrow. Will this right-wing government in Belgium at least also make the effort to help Greece organize a fair distribution for the solution of the budget deficits of this country, by helping the country fight against the heavy capital flight of usually very wealthy Greeks?

Mr Van der Maelen, I have the impression that you approach the problem with the Greek tax administration very unilaterally.

One of the biggest problems in Greece is, of course, the debts, which the Greeks all together have borne as tax debts to the Greek tax authorities. There are approximately 87 billion euros of tax debts. You also know that the tax administration in Greece is absolutely not working.

Are we willing to help with this? We are very sure of this, and we have already proved this. By the way, we are not alone. Other eurozone countries are also willing to help. Germany offers 500 tax officials to help Greece finally collect the taxes correctly. We also did that: Belgium had two VAT specialists on site, specialized in dealing with the large organized fraud with VAT carriages. Those specialists have done a good job there, but it is still marching for no meter in Greece. You can also see what happened. Help is often refused. These specialists are just looked outside. I would therefore really not approach the problem unilaterally, but look at the responsibilities of the successive governments of Greece. The PASOK regime was equally bad, Syriza is much worse now.

You are also talking about the capital flight in Greece, but it has never been so big as since the arrival of Syriza.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say to Mr. Dedecker that I agree with him.

I mean you enter an open door, Mr. Dedecker, if you say that there is a problem with the functioning of the Ministry of Finance in Greece. You are right when you say that there are still many outstanding tax debts of Greek citizens. I think it is wise to try to get this Ministry of Finance on the foot in addition to all kinds of other aid.

I wonder why such a poorly performing Ministry of Finance, based on the agreement that will be approved here tomorrow, does not receive help from you in the form of this information. We approved the agreement in the committee. We will also approve this tomorrow. I wonder if you do not want to give that information on a dish to that poorly performing Ministry of Finance. They can then work on it. As for us, this can be done with the support of foreign specialists. If you disagree with this, if this government does not, this is for me another proof that this is a government that does not go beyond words in terms of helping the Greeks. This government does not take any action to actually help that country.

My question is, therefore, whether the N-VA will propose its own Minister of Finance to contact its colleague, the Greek Minister of Finance. The former Greek finance minister has either left, but the minister has met with Tsakalotos for several hours. He must already know the man. Will the N-VA ask its Minister of Finance to contact his Greek counterpart and provide him with this information?

As you say, it comes from two sides. We have offered assistance in various areas, including with VAT officials. It is not just about offering help, it is also about willingness to accept help. In the past few years, the shoe has been blown, Mr. Van der Maelen.

Test the new government, test the new Minister of Finance, and you will see how he reacts. If he accepts that help in gratitude, so much better. If he does not accept that help in gratitude, I will, together with you, criticize him because he did not seize that opportunity. But I am confident that he will seize that opportunity with both hands. Only the Belgian political will must be there to do this and I have, frankly, even after this debate my doubts about it.

I would like to give a reply on behalf of the Government.

First of all, I would like to thank Mr Van der Maelen for his support for the draft government. Thanks to such a design, it is possible to exchange information, even about bank details.

We have already provided assistance to the tax administration in Greece, not just in terms of VAT or customs. We are willing to do more.

Finally, it is not useful to ask to do something, because it has already been done. I was in Greece before the referendum. I spoke to my colleague. I told him that we can ⁇ an exchange of intelligence at the request of Greece. My colleague’s response was that there are two ways. The first consists of the exchange of intelligence, the second is a regularization. Per ⁇ it has already been decided by your Syriza friends to carry out a real regularization for Greek money that is on foreign accounts. This is part of the plans of the Greek government.

Therefore, we may also provide technical assistance in both areas, not only in the exchange of data, but also, if necessary, in the regularization, as decided by the Greek government.

The success of a regularization, Mr. Minister, depends on the willingness of, in this case, the Greek who sits with his capital on Belgian accounts. If he or she does not want to take that regularization, then the weak administration of Finance in Greece can never know that.

If you really want to help the Greek taxpayer, Mr. Minister of Foreign Affairs and colleague De Decker – I address you, because your minister is not here – then you offer the Greek taxpayer that information.

I just said that we will do it! Stop asking such questions. I have answered ten times. We will do so, based on that text. Thank you for your support, for a government draft. You always ask the same questions. I have already answered it in the committee, and now again. We are prepared to do so, at the request of the Greek government, in order to properly implement such a draft law. What is the problem?

I know our government and our minister. In three months I will ask a question, Mr. Minister, if necessary an interpellation, so that you can show me in what way you have made hard what you have now said in words. Then I want to see if information has actually been transferred, from Belgium to Greece.