Proposition 50K2183

Projet de loi modifiant la loi du 31 décembre 1963 sur la protection civile.

General information ¶

Submitted by

Groen Open Vld Vooruit PS | SP Ecolo MR Verhofstadt Ⅰ

Submission date

Dec. 10, 2002

Official page

Visit

Status

Adopted

Requirement

Simple

Subjects

fire protection civil defence risk management

Voting ¶

Voted to adopt

Groen Ecolo PS | SP Open Vld MR

Voted to reject

CD&V N-VA FN VB

Abstained from voting

LE

Party dissidents ¶

• Annemie Van de Casteele (N-VA) voted to adopt.
• Vincent Decroly (Ecolo) abstained from voting.
• Richard Fournaux (MR) abstained from voting.

Contact form ¶

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Discussion ¶

Feb. 13, 2003 | Plenary session (Chamber of representatives)

Full source

by Mr. Frédéric refers to his written report.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Minister, colleagues, without wanting to be cassant and immediately make a judgment, I think I should say that the entire civil security policy has remained in the deep freezer for all the years that purple-green has been in power. There was almost nothing happening there.

Three months before the elections, however, the minister suddenly decided to pay some attention to the fire departments and to the Civil Protection. In fact, it is about the following. One may wonder whether this design meets the demands that the staff has set for years. Will this design lead to an improvement in the functioning of the existing Fire and Civil Protection Corps? Does this bring more clarity about the division of powers between Civil Protection and Firefighters? The answer is always no. Their

The demands of the staff for a better status are not addressed. There will be no recognition of their profession as a risky profession and there will be no better arrangement for the status of volunteers. However, there is a particular need to work on this. For many corpses, it becomes more difficult with the day to attract professional forces. For the recruitment of volunteers, the situation is even more dramatic if possible. Everyone knows that these volunteers, however, are vital for the operation of the fire brigades and fire services in our country.

Unfortunately, the Minister did not show any interest in this. I would like to quote a draft law that was discussed in the committee yesterday. It was exclusively a parliamentary initiative with a ⁇ limited scope. Furthermore, nothing has been done to address these problems. Colleagues, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that our fire services have a total of about 17,000 people. Of these, however, only 5,000 are professional firefighters. There are 12,000 volunteers. It is clear that they have an essential role to play in the security of territory and people. Their

One of the problems that worries many people and especially municipal governments is the declining number of candidate volunteers. I know there is a difficult balance to find. The structural cause lies with him — if not in the first place — in the requirements of training and perfection. Indeed, it seems to me essential — it is very often also a matter of life-threatening situations — that sufficient expertise exists, also with regard to the volunteers.

I would like to ask a question on this, Mr. Minister. Wouldn’t it be useful to think towards part-timeers instead of continually talking about volunteers tout court? They could possibly be at the disposal of the corpses and of the municipalities in a special statute or in any other way. (The sound of a gsm resonates) (A sonnerie de gsm retentit) That can happen to anyone, President.

The problem is that some set up the GSM and others can find it difficult to uninstall.

This is only the case for phones, Mr. President.

We understood each other.

I will return to the question, Mr. Minister, who lives with many who are responsible for security services, also at the local level: we should not expect a special status for what is now called the volunteers.

I think it would also provide additional opportunities to reconcile the special status of firefighter, whatever it may be called, with the requirements of a professional life. This is also becoming more and more a problem. Not only should one be available to get out, but one should also spend a significant number of hours at the start and during the course of the career on training and completion. This can more or less disrupt professional activities. Therefore, agreements between government, employers and stakeholders are needed on this point. I am very sorry, but nothing has been done about this.

As for the professional staff, the problems are ⁇ not less extensive. It is not just the gap between public and private that is at the root of this. Also the difficulties at the recruitment level are a result of the fact that firefighters have been excluded from any form of modernization of their own statute for years. I will give a few examples: the problem with the holiday fee, the lack of any mobility scheme, the discussion about the end-year premium, the problem of the wage tension for the respective degree, the outdated betting scales and so on. There are good reasons to argue that the professional firefighters are also neglected by you in terms of their status. Recently, uncertainty has been added as a result of the Royal Decree of 14 December 2000 concerning working hours. As a result, the employability of the staff and thus also the strike force of the corpses may be compromised. It is good that responsible politicians know this: for more than two years the fire department itself has been asking the party to work out a solution for this in the interest of the citizen. However, this also remained without consequence.

And what about the operation of the corps? I overwhelmed it very quickly. The zone formation remains an empty box, even because it was not sufficiently prepared and did not happen on the basis of objective criteria such as risk analysis and start times. In addition, they are inoperable in the absence of legal personality. I already had the opportunity to give a speech on this.

Furthermore, the lack of legal personality of the zones is of the nature of reducing their operability to almost zero, as for the least purchase to be made, each time a decision of each separate municipal administration belonging to the zone is needed. I already had the opportunity to exchange thoughts with you on this. I had expected — and many with me — that this legislative work would be used to regulate at least that small but important aspect.

If it is not provided in the text, I will be free to submit an amendment.

Also in terms of equipment, you will continue to treat the firefighters stepmotherly. Although the intervention material is partially subsidised by you, the available budgets cover only a small fraction of the needs. To put it in the form of material: in the course of 2002 each province was provided with an amount that should allow to buy two car loads, nothing more. Not so much the subsidy rate as the overall credit is a problem in this regard.

Third, communication remains a weak link. In so many areas, this has proved to be one of the important items. A few years ago, however, the government decided to invest in the ASTRID network that should allow different emergency services to communicate with each other at the same time. Unfortunately, we must note that here the firefighter also acts as the fifth wheel to the car, because still can not use this yet quite performance system.

Mr. Speaker, during his term — which I regret — the Minister has failed to reach any consensus on fire and civil protection. His plans were constantly floated back through the base. Probably this is why there was no consultation on this draft with the representative bodies, nor with the Association of Cities and Municipalities. Yesterday, following questions from, among other things, colleague Hendrickx in the committee for domestic affairs, we were able to hear that a number of royal decrees would still be published before the end of the legislature. The content of some of those decisions is known to us and they have serious consequences for the fire department staff.

Furthermore, as regards these decisions, the Minister, in his own words, did follow the opinion of the working group that he installed. I have to answer this question in your place, Mr. Minister. As far as we know, no agreement was reached in this working group. To push these plans still is, for this reason, an allegation of the consultative democracy as we have always defended it. This is a pro-forma consultation in which the Minister expresses his will anyway. This is unacceptable for us. Take, for example, the draft decision on the training of firefighters. You have repeatedly said that there would be no centralization of this training. This does not exclude the fact that provincial centers see their powers in this matter exhausted. For example, they can no longer deliver testimonials. There is no equalization in training between the different centres, which should be done urgently. Our position is and remains that provincial centers should be able to provide a full-fledged basic education.

Only highly specialized training can be centralized. This is, Mr. Minister, of primary importance for attracting new staff, especially for the volunteers. Do you see these volunteers traveling to Brussels in large numbers from all corners of the country? I tell you that this in itself would mean a departure from volunteering.

This draft was therefore to regulate, Mr. Minister — it is stated in Article 2, in essence the first article — in the first place the division of tasks between the public fire services and the civil protection services. After some insistence, we have been able to obtain from you that indeed the basic tasks of fire and civil protection were incorporated into the law, by means of an amendment. Regarding the division of powers between Civil Protection and Firefighters, you simply refer to the King, although after consultation in the Council of Ministers. Therefore, Parliament has no control over this. However, it is suggested in the explanation that this was and is one of the essential objectives of the law.

This draft has also quite extended, Mr. Minister, on the formulation of disaster plans. We are also not satisfied with the text as it presents. The obligation for municipalities and provinces to draw up a disaster plan is not a problem in itself. However, we are convinced that a risk analysis should form the basis of such disaster planning. Currently, especially in smaller municipalities, there are no resources at all available to make a clear analysis of the risks that threaten, for example, in the event of a fire on the territory. The municipalities are still in the cold.

Mr. Minister, this is clearly a draft that at eleven o’clock still wants to keep the appearance high of any policy on this subject. However, there is a lack of a comprehensive vision on the functioning of targeted civil security corps, adapted to the needs of our contemporary society. The design seems to me rather to be inspired by the situation in the province of Luxembourg. But Belgium is clearly more, colleagues, than Luxembourg alone. There are areas in our country that set very different requirements. A port city such as Antwerp, for example, has to deal with very different things than a more rural area from the same province. Measurement is of the utmost importance in these and that should be the starting point. Their

Moreover, even with this original draft, which also intended to establish a system for the control of environmental disasters, the distribution of powers that is so peculiar to this country has been struck. Isn’t it time for civil protection to be regionalized? It is quite obvious that North and South in this country have a completely different view of this. Furthermore, competence disputes continue to arise, as was previously regulated in the case of staff with the end-year premium and the holiday allowance. Indeed, yesterday in the committee for domestic affairs a bill was approved to regulate this, but yet this remains a semi-fortunate solution.

After all, the King can arrange a number of points of the statute in order to enable the equalization with the rest of the municipal staff. However, nothing obliges him to do so. Furthermore, the differences between the North and the South in terms of municipal staff must be continuously taken into account. As regards this bill, it is therefore a step in the right direction, but a transfer of powers is, in our opinion, more and more urgent.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to conclude that this modification of the Civil Protection Act of 1963 primarily serves to save the appearance. It is a faint decoction of what it should have been. It does not deserve our support.

We are not alone with this opinion. I refer to a recent press release from the Royal Belgian Firefighters Federation. I read the heading before it: “The Minister of the Interior, Mr. Duquesne, has submitted a draft law which gives him all the powers for the division of tasks between the organization of Civil Protection and firefighters.” It is good that the people of the majority would also hear the following: “If this law is approved, the minister can now by royal decree simply express his own vision without having to discuss it with the professional organisations or the representatives of cities and municipalities.” It is useful that even the members of the majority would clearly know that it is acting here as if at least 12,000 volunteers and 5,000 professionals are in no way heard or involved in a reform which, however, affects them directly. Mr. Minister, I regret that. These volunteers and the professionals would have deserved better.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ministers, I want to say to the Minister of the Interior how much I appreciate his progress in Dutch. It was also very impressive. I see with what heart he works the learning of this language and I confess to you that I am in the same case. by

Mr. Minister, beyond people, we will deal with a substantial problem for which you have the art of appearing or being ⁇ optimistic, which is ⁇ a force. by

Through this bill, which aims to refine emergency planning and the distribution of the tasks of civil protection and fire services, I highlighted a certain desire for clarity. But, inevitably, there remains a fundamental question: what about financial means?

by Mr. So much talked about projects that remain in the freezer for years. Personally, although I consider the four years spent here, I have no knowledge of a significant improvement in financial means in the service of civil security and I allow myself to recall it.

There are 17,000 firefighters in Belgium: 5,000 professionals and 12,000 volunteers. It would take much more professionals to replace volunteers and therefore it is measured how indispensable these volunteers are to ensure the financial viability of a service of extreme importance. It is measured that we have every interest in worrying about the status of volunteers, without forgetting of course that of professionals.

Like the mr. So I wonder how we will do in a few years to recruit a sufficient number of volunteers. If the federal refuses to take a step forward on the level of statutes, our cities and municipalities will experience serious difficulties in terms of civil security.

Mr. Minister, you know that I have repeatedly, with passion, raised the problem relating to the equipment and equipment. I am astonished when you take into account what the federal state allocates in terms of financial means for the purchase of equipment and equipment. That’s exactly 1 euro and 20 cents per capita today. My comparison may be excessive, but it resembles buying two packs of chips in a supermarket. This is the reality!

When I see the enormous efforts made by the cities and municipalities, at all levels — police first and now equipment and equipment — I find that the federal state, I apologize to say, does not do its duty. You will tell me that we have not paid enough attention to this problem before. There is no point in repeating constantly what has not been done. The most important thing is the future.

Today, I feel ⁇ concerned about the difficulties faced by cities and municipalities to assume quality equipment and equipment. I must remind you, quality equipment has, first of all, to do with the safety of men. In fact, most accidents occurring at the level of firefighters are due to a deficiency at the level of equipment. Attacking fire with a self-scale is something else than building stairs against corniches. This is a very simple example. Recently, I have found that municipalities are compelled to buy used equipment, even 40-year-old auto-escales to get rid of because they do not have the means to pay for equipment. I am personally convinced that one day we will regret the lack of effort made before. This is not at all your only fact, but the lack of effort currently being made in terms of equipment is one thing that I personally cannot understand, given the safety equipment needed for the intervention teams. by

In Belgium, there is no dispute regarding the will, generosity and commitment of all firefighters, whether they are professional or volunteer. You know how much you give to others. It is one of the bodies where the highest rate of generosity is met and in this context, it is an important problem.

In our cities and municipalities, I find, rightly, that the training needs are multiplying, even at the level of chemical risk prevention training. For example, a problem has recently arisen in the commission: the ascarelle tips. In this regard, I even asked my colleague and friend, Mr. Denis, to better understand this problem. The risks are huge. As part of an intervention, I can testify that an agent was at risk of losing his life, because interventions are sometimes difficult. by

Therefore, it is for us to encourage all training efforts. In any case, I can assure you that the cost of training becomes completely disproportionate for our cities and municipalities, but necessary, because we do not have the right — you will agree — to send our men to run an extremely large risk. More and more, this is a path that will need to be followed: to support the communes financially in order to ensure these men adequate training.

Furthermore, I am concerned about the recent remarks made by Mr. Both concerning the necessary consultations, because the problem does not appear urgent enough for some. It is, in the framework of royal arrests in particular, the will, it seems, to provincialise. I do not want to enter a provincialization system at all. This is nothing but financial disresponsibility. More and more, it seems that we are going to solve problems because we create zones. by

So, in the district of Verviers where we created, for example, a zone 4, I find that this has strictly changed nothing at all. Men are men. Intervention teams are intervention teams and field actors do not need to find themselves in formal or formalizing structures to intervene. Here is an example that I have mentioned several times. During the Theux disaster, for example, all the firefighters from the district and beyond spontaneously descended to the site to ultimately manage the disaster that caused the loss of human lives. This is an obvious thing and you say it often, but I believe that we must be consistent in this context: first men, then structures. And so, it is not by creating ever-larger areas that we will solve the problems, but on the contrary. by

I prefer accountability on a local, human-sized level, where men know each other, where the faces of firefighters are known, which ultimately allows them to spontaneously create intervention teams. And it is not — I repeat it — by expanding the areas and eventually provincializing that we will solve the problems. This would be a misguided way of mixing the accounts of professional firefighters, or rather areas where there are professionals, and fire areas where there are volunteers; which would ⁇ not arrange rural areas. I say this very clearly to this tribune: I do not believe in a will for provincialization. You reassured me when you told me that Mrs. Lizin was a major risk. This is my opinion, too. Your response reassured me and I will fight, at the local level where I will still be politically engaged, against this system of provincialization. Some would like to make them believe that a structure would resolve the problems. You are probably not convinced of this. by

The last thing I want to mention on this tribune is that I am personally a little worried about all the works that are currently under construction. I pointed out this to you in the committee, given in particular the financial problems encountered by the SNCB. It is indisputable.

While speaking of civil security, emergency planning and prevention, I would like to tell you very clearly in this tribune that I continue to draw attention to the problems that could constitute, in terms of security, the Soumagne tunnel. When I talk about this to Mrs. Minister Durant, I wonder if she knows that there is a tunnel in Soumagne that is more than six kilometers long. by

I simply emphasize that in case of fire, our firefighters from the plateau should intervene on the side of the fireplace. According to the information that is constantly returned to me, there are or would be problems in the security approach or in any case in the prevention approach. You know like me — I’m sure you’re listening — that this is your responsibility, that of the Minister of the SNCB, and also my own responsibility. In fact, I recall that this is an extremely delicate situation and that I could even call very worrying. It also applies not only to the lives of people who might be surprised by a difficulty—which, I hope, will never happen—but also ultimately to those who should intervene in extremely difficult conditions. by

I am not going to be longer, Mr. President. I have noticed that mr. The minister who knows — and who loves — the beautiful words as well as a certain elegance in the expression, has translated exactly what I feel about his work here with the firefighters. Regarding the rescue zones, the Minister notes that there has been some maturity during this legislature. This is well said, but I believe that sometimes commitment calls for more passion. The term is ⁇ well chosen. You like to take things backwards, but I also feel that during this legislature, I did not feel the same will that was deployed as part of the police reform; I say it very frankly. I know you have been very busy with the reform of the police, I acknowledge it. But at the level of firefighters, however I look, I do not see any additional financial means. by

Finally, Mr. Speaker, as I said earlier, it should be provided for, for each bill, an assessment of the financial means that its implementation will involve, which will allow the assemblies to vote on it under sufficient conditions of accountability. I thank you.

Mr. Speaker, I will be brief because I have the impression that the opposition to this bill is on the same line.

Colleagues, the draft law aims to define a general legal framework for disaster planning and also to organize a better distribution between the Civil Protection and the local fire brigades. But, as many things happen in this legislature, this bill is, in my view, a missed opportunity. It is more than obvious that the bill comes from above, not from the base. Apparently, the minister, along with his purple-green majority, has no knowledge of the problem that rightly lives at the base.

Mr. Minister, you and your colleagues may still remember the recent strikes. It was not just about a tax statute, on the contrary. As a resident of Brasschaat, of course, I am aware of the concerns of Civil Protection. As you know, or not know, Brasschaat houses one of the largest casernes of Civil Protection. Brasschaat can also be cited as an example of how a well-functioning fire brigade works because our municipality has already invested a lot and the cooperation is running optimally. But we must also look further. I would like to mention some other municipalities. In this context, I would like to point out the speech of Mr. Tant, who has rightly quoted a lot of comments. His comments are also my comments. I will not repeat them. Mr. Tant has already made those comments in the committee and he has repeated them afterwards. Their

When I speak of the base, I naturally speak first of all of the Civil Protection, of course without forgetting the fire department. I must also note that there have been no or only minimal contacts with the municipalities, with the trade federations, even with the trade unions. I do not doubt the intention. It will have been good. But with good intentions we are not going far in this Parliament. There are so many questions left unanswered that I can only describe that design in one way: it is a purple-green design, or in the popular word a fur-and-blue design, nowadays, by the way, a lot of fur and little blue. When I read the entire bill as a member of the municipal council — since I am also still a member of the municipal council — I find one point especially important: what is the impact, both financial and general, on the municipalities? Especially: who will pay for all this? This bill either recognizes the municipalities, it recognizes that the municipalities play an important role in disaster control, but we have our concerns about what the bill will bring in practice. Of course, the government is delighted that it has a lot of confidence in the various municipalities. They will be given additional powers, they can even draw up their own disaster plans. So I assume there are municipalities that will do it perfectly. I think my community will go very far in that. But I also think that smaller municipalities will clearly have a problem.

Furthermore, the competence of the legislator becomes even more unclear. I always thought that laws were intended to clarify a number of things. Another fundamental criticism is certain that the relief areas still do not coincide with the police zones. I think this is a missed opportunity. I know that they are now opting for provincial zones. Initially, this is logical. But I fear that in practice this will lead to less involvement of the base. This bill does not solve this problem and remains very vague about it. I assume that the minister will still settle something through a number of royal decrees.

He is even determined to do all that before the elections, but I still stand in the cold. Their

Of course, I have heard from several colleagues from the majority that this government works with good intentions, but they are all critical at the same time. This is typical of this government. Everything happens under the motto “Hope makes life” and one promises a lot above all.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Ministers, Mr. Colleagues, the Reform Group will support this bill which aims exclusively to reorganize the services administering the civil security sector.

Two measures are proposed.

First, allowing the King to clarify the respective competences of fire services, fire services called reinforcement and civil protection services. Currently, the absence of a precise assignment of tasks implies that certain tasks are undertaken concurrently by different intervention corps. We believe, together with the Minister, that this has no negligible consequences, at the financial level, for example, in operating costs, in equipment investment costs and in staff training. It is also useful to be able to distinguish between legal tasks and non-legal tasks in order to recover, at the expense of the beneficiaries, the costs of non-legal or non-regulatory interventions.

The second measure is the generalization of the obligation for local authorities to adopt an emergency plan. In practice, it turns out that most municipalities have already fulfilled this task. However, it is important to homogenize the working methods. The mechanism imagined by the government seems to us to be capable of achieving this goal.

It consists of four points: 1. The mayor prepares the emergency plan. 2 of 2. The file is subject to approval by the province. 3 of 3. The provincial authority shall establish a general emergency plan for its territory. 4 of 4. Emergency plans are subject to approval by the Minister.

It must be added that it is the King, through a royal decree deliberated in Council of Ministers, who will determine the content of the various plans of emergency and intervention, their modalities of establishment, as well as their organizational and functional structures.

I would like to be surprised here to hear some colleagues, ⁇ Mr. So much, to enter into the details, so as to clarify things as much as possible, much too much as to make them appear in a loicadre, to talk about scales, material, etc. All this, Mr. Tant, must be part of the implementation measures.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. D'Hondt, first, in the essence of my argument, I would like to make it very clear that the law does not regulate what it pretends to regulate. It does not, by itself, establish a division of powers between fire departments and the Corps of Civil Protection. The issue is referred only to the King, though with consultation in the Council of Ministers. It limits itself to that.

Second, I have indeed spoken about material equipment and about a number of other gaps in policy, to the extent that one can use that word, for there has not even been a real policy in this matter. Can you tell me what additional efforts have been made? I am not speaking within the context of the design, but as a result of it. Can you tell me what additional efforts have been made to ⁇ a better material equipment of the corpses? Can you tell me what efforts have been made, for example, to improve communication? Can you tell me what has been done — and that is the essence of my criticism — to the nibbling problem — given the declining interest in volunteering in the fire departments — of the regulation of the statutory of volunteers? Can you tell me what they did there? Their

To these questions you should answer “no”. You should not blame me. I think I am fully entitled to use this opportunity to make a balance, especially of what has not happened. That is what I did, Mr. D'Hondt.

The Minister will answer you with precision, Mr. Tant, but we must start from the beginning and set up the rules before clarifying the terms of their application, this is obvious. Of course, not everything can be included in a framework law.

A few words about the wording of Article 2 in the draft. It appeared to us, in the committee of the Interior, that the delegation to the King should be specified. The article therefore now mentions the list of tasks falling within civil protection in the broad sense of the term. It is up to the King to specify how these tasks will be distributed between the fire services, the fire services in reinforcement and the civil protection services. I can support this initiative, even though, in my opinion, the original text was sufficiently clear. It seems to me logical that a bill returns to the King the role of establishing the technical measures for the distribution of tasks between different intervention bodies, but it is important – and it is essential – that the Parliament be aware of the use that has been made of this delegation. If a draft royal decree exists, it is good, as is the case in the present case, that it be annexed to the text of law. It does not, however, seem to me necessary that a law systematically incorporates a litany of technical measures.

It would be more useful — and we are talking about it more and more often in this tribune — to attach to every draft and every bill, the budgetary impact of the proposed measures, with a particular attention to the municipal finances.

I thank you.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Minister, Dear colleagues, in the discussion of the present bill referring to the Law of 31 December 1963 on Civil Protection, I would like to highlight some aspects of the proposed legislative amendment. Undoubtedly, the above-mentioned text is inspired by noble motives, but its realization is, in my opinion, imperfect.

First of all, I would like to question the title of this bill. Since the substantive provisions relate to civil security, it would have been better to propose this draft law in its name as a draft law concerning civil security, in order to avoid any confusion of concepts. The concept of Civil Protection is rightly housed in the global whole of the General Directorate of Civil Security, as a federal service at the Ministry of Interior.

In addition to firefighting services, Civil Protection finds its purpose in providing assistance to the population in the event of disasters, disasters, damage incidents and in applying logistical reinforcement – with personnel and equipment – to the various aid disciplines such as firefighters, ambulance services and police. This is, in other words, much more than civil protection. As indicated in the summary of the draft law, it concerns both the contracts of Civil Protection, as well as the public fire services.

I would ⁇ not want to doubt that there should be a thorough thinking exercise in the area of the organization of civil security. Mr. Minister, I have had to experience quite recently — unfortunately during the water emergency in the Gent region — that, despite the strong motivation and willingness of the various emergency services, there is still much to improve in the coordination between the fire services and the civil protection services. Among other things, I have said this with so many words in a note — which the Gent city administration delivered to the prime minister at the beginning of January — with an inventory of the possible points of improvement to remedy the water emergency problem.

In the context of disaster control, the uniformization of procedures aimed at this bill and the terminology used, I regret that the federal government, despite its good intentions, appears to be fragmented, given the fact that it has decided not to conclude a cooperation agreement with the regions. In my opinion, disaster management is in many cases linked to the protection of the environment, and thus an inescapable factor in the safety problem. Those wishing to develop a sustainable security policy should take into account all direct and indirect parameters, of any level of competence, in order to organize a structured consultation on the basis thereof.

However, a synergy between the two groups, on the one hand firefighters and on the other Civil Protection, can only be achieved after a comprehensive study has first been conducted based on a geographically oriented risk analysis across Belgium. In this context, aspects such as driving times to the place of the disaster or accident are of primary importance. As far as I know, this study has not happened, except locally in Antwerp and Hoogstraten. The present draft law does not appear to be a legal representation of conclusions made on the basis of a methodological scientific inventory of risk factors within the civil security problem.

However, in the summary of this bill, the first objective is set, I quote, "to provide a general legal framework for disaster planning focused on all other risks". That there is a need for modernization of existing structures, I ⁇ do not want to deny. However, a restructuring of such a scale cannot, in my opinion, be submitted without scientific support and without consideration of the consequences it entails. It is precisely in the context of ensuring an optimal safety of our citizens that a well-thoughtful effort must be made to improve the existing structures. The safety of human lives is not experimented.

The problem of training of emergency personnel is of priority and requires a professional approach, preferably carried out by specialists in each of the different sub-disaster management sub-disciplines, who possess both theoretical and practical knowledge. It is therefore necessary to take measures not only in the area of powers but also in relation to the operational organization, the personnel problem, the equipment and the communication between both the fire brigades and the departments of civil protection and also the communication with the citizens.

Following the Dutch example, it is desirable to establish at the overall federal level, possibly divided into a French-speaking and a Dutch-speaking cell or institution, an organ that specifically provides for the scientific support of the various emergency services, the professionalization of the provincial training centers, the functioning as a central examination body, the determination of the qualitative training requirements, the implementation of new safety techniques and last but not least the drafting of a regulation on fire prevention. The organization of global purchases of high-tech equipment could also be organized in such a cell.

While scaling up the functioning of the civil security service can lead to a better utilization of financial resources for the purchase of equipment and the like, optimisation of the services, on the other hand, requires a better employment of personnel and therefore undoubtedly also more financial resources.

A modern personnel policy should take into account an adjusted staff status in accordance with the imposed responsibilities, the irregular performance and the often dangerous and psychically stressful working conditions. A financial audit of the various municipal corps will reveal that uniform procedures may remain dead letter due to a shortage of financial resources of the corpses and, in addition, a local distribution of these resources. This is not the case for Civil Protection, which is included in the administration of Home Affairs. In addition, ⁇ ining provincial borders in the preparation of a general disaster plan for disaster relief leads to kafkaean states in which we establish that the whole aspect of security is dual: on the one hand, police security is in the hands of the federal police and on the other, civil security is organized provincially. This leads to aberrations. The port area of Antwerp extends over areas of the provinces of East Flanders and Antwerp, and the fire services are differently oriented there.

This does not need to be a problem in itself, provided that cooperation is provided at interprovincial or regional level. Their

A last aspect, but not insignificant, is that the new structure that will be proposed by a royal decree on the basis of article 2 of this bill gives a new interpretation to the article 135 § 2, 5° of the new municipal law and for the colleagues who may not have fully understood the bill I give the text for a moment.

The municipalities also have the task of providing, for the benefit of the inhabitants, a good police, in particular regarding the sanity, health, safety and tranquility on public roads and places and in public buildings. More specifically, and insofar as the matter is not held outside the competence of the municipalities, the subsequent affairs of the police are entrusted to the vigilance and authority of the municipalities." And now comes the fifth point: "Taking appropriate measures to prevent disasters and plagues, such as fires and epidemics, and providing the necessary assistance to make them stop."

I agree with the reasoning of the Inspector of Finance, when he states that this issue belongs to the exclusive competence of local governments until today. The reasoning of the State Council to refute this refers only to the competence in civil protection, which I am concerned with, but not to the competence in civil security and, in itself, to the public fire service. This limitation of municipal autonomy is so fundamental that only on its basis this bill will have to be subjected to a thorough revision. Despite all my comments [...]

Mr. Tante wishes to interrupt you.

It can of course.

On your last comment, I agree with you. I have raised the same problem in the committee, though quite briefly. It is also not clear exactly where the limit of competence is located, but I think you are right to bring the attention here for a moment. But allow me to ask you one question. I listened carefully to your statement and you decided. Per ⁇ I interrupted you too early? The only thing you have done in the form of positive evaluation is that you appreciate the good intentions of the government and the minister. That is, of course, a lot, but for the rest, your argument has actually been for a good part the repetition, in other words, of the comments that were also made by us. So I really look forward to some interest in your voting behavior and that of your group, Mr Versnick.

Mr. Tante, as far as this behavior is concerned, I can ⁇ reassure you. As you know, this is a framework law that will have to take shape through royal decrees agreed in the Council of Ministers. Indeed, my explanation seeks to give a number of thoughts and indications concerning the content of those royal decrees which will be drawn up in the future.

I conclude that despite all my comments, I am pleased that the Minister of Home Affairs is questioning the existing structures. He intends at least to contribute to the optimization of the procedures related to civil security, where the relevant corps and services in the past have been treated too stepmotherly.

Isn’t that a good ending, Mr. Tante?

This is a literary ending.

Indeed indeed .

A literary ending. But on the other hand, you can’t get next. You have referred to the objective pursued by the law. However, the law itself does not meet this goal. It is a framework law, you say. However, you should be well aware that, even in terms of essence, the principled division of powers between the Civil Protection and the fire department, nothing new is delivered. There is a simple reference to a royal decision. I thought that Parliament should have a little more ambition than that, for a matter that, in the difficult times we are experiencing today, could prove to be essential. To stand aside in this matter — this is, of course, a little more difficult when one belongs to the majority, Mr. Versnick — it seems to me not even wise, regardless of the political opportunity.

You know that Rome was not built in a day. I have very clearly stated that there are a number of good intentions underlying this and that we are evolving in the right direction. Much will depend on the implementation of the decisions. Mr. Tante, we are of course different opinions on this point at the moment.

I have told you very often to stand here on the speech floor, when it was not yet raised. You said then that the bill contains elements that the government must complete and that you had full confidence in the government that it would do it in the right way. I have heard you tell this here often. The speech level was then slightly lower. That was when you were the leader of a majority party. It was at a lower level.

I also have confidence that the government will fulfill some things in a wise way and that it will happen in the sense as I have indicated in my presentation.

Mr. Hendrickx, I know that you are following this dossier closely.

We have been following this for a few years. I hear Mr. Versnick say that he will follow the completion closely.

Mr Versnick, at the moment at least four draft royal decrees are circulating. Among other things, there is a design related to the formation. According to the Minister, the draft has been discussed in working groups. There is indeed a Working Group Forming, which has met several times, but has been completed without consensus. On the contrary, his operation was even completely “disagreeable” stopped.

The draft royal decree is currently in place. It will probably be published by the Minister by 15 March 2003, as he said yesterday in the committee. The trade federations do not agree with this. They have a lot of criticism. So at this moment one can already say that the completion will not be good and that there will be a lot of comments on it. This is not just the case with that conscious draft of royal decree. There are also several other drafts, with which the professional federation does not agree. The ministers also rely on other draft projects in working groups, which sometimes have not even met.

So you should actually say that we will not wait for the fulfillment. After all, you already know that the filling will be bad and will not be accepted by the base.

Mr. Speaker, unlike Mr. Hendrickx, I am a non-dogmatic thinker. I do not judge on designs that circulate and where one tries to sow wind around. I judge on the basis of decisions taken. As soon as the decisions are made, it will be possible to evaluate whether it is indeed going in the right direction or not. I, Mr. Hendrickx, unlike you, have full confidence in the government.

Mr. Speaker, dear colleagues, the bill that is subject to your deliberations has a limited but ⁇ important object, especially in the current context, insofar as it makes the establishment of emergency plans mandatory in all municipalities, beyond what is already required in the Seveso sector, in the nuclear field, or beyond what already exists in almost three quarters of the municipalities of the Kingdom. In this regard, all municipalities must be equipped with an emergency plan to be able to cope with all the threats that exist at the moment. Given the tensions that exist internationally, it must be recognized that they are not limited to natural disasters. It is, therefore, very urgent that these plans exist everywhere and that they be elaborated in order and method, the harmonisation of terminologies, the framework, the means, with the exercise of a tutel of approval and, finally, the consecration by the royal decree.

Of course, all emergency plans will still need to be improved in the future, taking into account, in particular, the risks analyses that are ongoing. This is true not only for the emergency plans that will be drawn up tomorrow, but also for revising those that exist today.

Then, order is put in the distribution of competences between the fire departments and civil protection. Mr. Versnick, I would have gladly changed the title of the law, speaking of the Civil Security Service but for now, the terminology is "civil protection" to cover the whole matter and if we had proceeded this way, we would have created a disturbance in the interpretation of all existing texts, which were taken under the Act of 1963.

To ⁇ this, we have engaged in an intense consultation with all interested parties, all partners who have signed their agreement. I still see you, Mr. Hendrickx, coming to the committee to talk about the decree that I was about to sign, a draft decree that I had never seen, that my cabinet ignored, that my administration also ignored and that, in addition, was very badly done. I ⁇ would not have signed it if it had been presented to me in this way.

This means that you can ⁇ find here or there on the territory of the Kingdom one or the other who is not satisfied, who has a different view of things. In any case, I confirm in the most formal way that the distribution that I will operate as soon as the law is voted will be in accordance with the draft decree that I submitted to the committee, which is the result of a thorough consultation with the main stakeholders. This project distinguishes, on the one hand, the first line, which is the work of firefighters who can more and better cope with it, and the second line, which is reserved for civil protection. It comes in support either when there is an insufficient staff or when special technical problems arise that civil protection is better able to understand.

Mr. Speaker, the Minister says here again — and I want to believe him — that he does not stand behind the text of that draft royal decree which, however, was drawn up according to the coveted formula and according to the classical conditions and thus had to come somewhere from an administration because I did not make it myself. So I would like to ask the minister if it is his attitude that he does not go to one zone per province as it was stated in the draft royal decree that I have submitted.

Mr. Tante, do you have the same question?

I really want to extend this. The minister has always suggested that the royal decrees he has in hand with the representative firefighters were discussed. He refers to the working groups he has set up. Some of those working groups — and the minister must contradict me if I exaggerate — have once and again not met. No consensus has ever been reached in any working group. Then, in terms of consultation, you refer to this system that actually had to serve merely and only to provide you with an alibi. These working groups did not work. Hence, by the way, the reactions of the Belgian Firefighters Federation, which rightly complains about the fact – and there you wrote history, Mr. Minister – that you did not consult with them. I regret that.

I will answer Mr. The time has come. But let me finish the presentation of what should normally be the subject of our discussions, i.e. a project whose subject matter is limited and which concerned, on the one hand, emergency plans and, on the other hand, the distribution of tasks between firefighters and civil protection.

I tell you that there will be no other decree than that of which I have submitted the draft in committee, unless the government should decide otherwise. Indeed, both to reassure and to ensure that no untimely initiative will be taken, I have accepted an amendment stipulating that this royal decree will be deliberated in Council of Ministers.

However, I would like to be honest in recognizing that this project will provide greater legal certainty in the operation of services. You know as well as I know that, for now, all this is settled by a simple circular that I could have, if I had wanted to, modified in the secret of my office. Things are clear, transparent, and you really need to be bad intention to see it malicious.

For the surplus...

... ...

But Mr. Tant, I know! I have listened to you patiently, but this is the third time in three months — at least — that you have the same speech. On the occasion of a bill, which is a limited bill, you resume a general discussion already held, as part of the presentation of the 2003 budget, on all the problems posed at the level of what is still called, and until new order, civil security.

Mr. Tintin, you have heard me often in the committee. As President, you know how much I am asked by questions or interpellations on the subject and especially by Mr. and Hendrickx. So I have had the opportunity to answer precisely all those questions that you have, once again, evoked here today, probably with political intentions — which I cannot blame you — maybe even political intentions. But let me tell you that in terms of security, this is not a matter of majority or opposition. Together, we must seek to improve the device to ensure more safety for the population.

It is true that civil security in general needs a fundamental reform. This should be done with a lot of precautions. For my part, I have gathered – it is true – a large number of working groups, bringing together all those who were interested in this reform and especially the fieldmen. In fact, a “white book” was prepared addressing all issues: from the structure, the need to organize these services at the local level, to have a decentralized level of coordination and, of course, also to have a centralized organization to cope with major needs or major risks that we might be brought to face in this society. On this occasion, Mr Smets, we also addressed the issue of financing.

... ...

Let the Minister finish his reasoning, Mr. Tant.

by Mr. He is used to this technique. Mr. Tant, in four years of commission, if you had to demoralize me, you would have been there a long time ago. But the more I hear you, the more my determination grows.

I ask for the word for a personal fact.

A member of parliament who is still struggling to start the discussion with a minister is simply accused of having evil intentions. I begin to understand that, Mr. Speaker. The draft that the minister submits is neither less nor more a draft that wants to give a special power to the King to regulate what he pretends to regulate. Then we would be blamed for taking this opportunity to exchange thoughts with the Minister on the concrete functioning of the services for which he is responsible. I think this is our job, Mr. Minister. We should take this opportunity to criticize or give a positive assessment of what is within your competence. I do not do otherwise.

Answer the questions! If you say that you are constantly faced with difficult members of parliament in the committee and in the plenary session, that is largely due to the fact that you limit yourself to moralising comments and never answer questions. Tell me how many working groups you have installed.

I answered, I don’t know how many times in the commission, Mr. Tant.

How many of these working groups have formulated conclusions, Mr. Minister? I am not talking about how much consensus has been reached. That would be a good habit, isn’t it?

Let the Minister answer, Mr. Tante, you may hear something else. The incident is closed. The incident is closed.

Mr. Tant, six working groups have come to conclusions that will be found in a "white book" that I will hand over to the next trainer. by

Indeed, I voted for the police reform when I was in the opposition and I worked for four years to feed files in order to improve, tomorrow, the civil security for the population. This is how I work! That’s why I’m not a supporter of a certain movie that I often see here in public sessions! by

There were six, there were six. Their

I have repeated it I do not know how many times in commission, but there is no worse deaf than the one who does not want to hear! You claim that in this bill it would be a special powers law! Either you have not read it, or you have not understood it, or yet, in parliamentary terms, you say the opposite of truth, because I have demonstrated in a committee the precise objective of this bill. by

Beyond this fundamental reform, a number of things can be done, fortunately, by royal decree. This is still within the power of the executive. by

Yesterday, in the commission, I answered Mr. Hendrickx—and I think you were still present—that a royal decree concerning training will be issued in March. This decree, which is the result of the negotiations that took place, does not provide for any centralization but rather respect for the training schools as they exist at the present time and an improvement of the situation on the qualitative level. by

In addition, I have taken measures and decisions regarding the status of officers and the possibility for volunteers to pursue their careers in a professional setting. I also improved the situation of volunteer firefighters in many ways by allowing them access to the body of professionals. There too, the decision followed with a general consensus on the whole procedure, including the trade union consultation.

Certainly, we can ask ourselves questions about the future of volunteers as they are currently conceived. These people, with an exemplary dedication, intervene after their working day but when incidents occur while they are at work, one must recognize that one is impoverished. This means that it is necessary not only to strengthen the body of volunteers but also to think about new formulas among which the formula of part-time work is not to be excluded a priori.

As for the problem of financing, it is true that the effort provided by the municipalities today is maximum and could hardly be overcome. In this regard, I am pleased that in the Walloon Region, as part of the new competences assigned to the provinces, it has been decided to devote funds for the purchase of equipment for fire services in particular. I add that an effort has been made at the federal level, in the 2003 budget, for the purchase of equipment but I gladly acknowledge that it is still insufficient. I also said that it should be considered to ask for participation in the private sector, especially in the insurance sector, because there is a lot of demand from firefighters; this would reduce the risk and would result in fewer interventions from insurance companies who could ⁇ , for these benefits, contribute and collaborate.

As for the areas, ...

Mr. Minister, you acknowledge the persistence of huge problems in terms of financing.

As for me, one thing annoys me very much. The allocation of vehicles and equipment is a decision made province by province or per working group, no matter. This means that a municipality can wait ten years to have a vehicle and, throughout this time, remain completely impoverished in the face of actual existing dangers. I would not understand that we do not have the courage to say that we will create a draw fund. This would allow all cases to be treated equally, based on a number of criteria. I am deeply upset by the fact that for years some municipalities have failed to do anything. I think this is unacceptable and I would like to tell you. If this right of drawing is not created, the municipality will receive the vehicle or not according to the goodwill of this or that political influence. Behind all this, there are men who want to work in good conditions and who are proud to be volunteer or professional firefighters.

There are criteria, but they are not always satisfying in all respects. For example, the population figure is an important criterion. But in areas with low population density, where the risk exists and where citizens are entitled to the same protection, this is a criterion that does not adequately account for reality.

It is true that, given the insufficient resources, sometimes one has to wait too long. You talked about Theux at the time when the drama you know occurred and where it took two years for me to go and hand over the keys to the new autopump which was obviously necessary to cope with the risks.

Regarding the areas, I find it an interesting initiative that allows, on a voluntary basis in the current state of affairs, to see how to optimally use the staff available across a whole territory. I never said that I believed the ideal size was that of a province. I think the reality must be taken into account. We need a very pragmatic approach. This also allows for the most expensive, heavier materials to decide on joint purchases. The operation is launched. What I call maturity means that we must be able to draw all the lessons from it before moving to a more important stage, which will be that of the granting of legal personality, which will eventually organize in a systematic manner, with an internal and own decision-making process, the functioning of the police zone.

You also asked me about a risk that has nothing to do with this project but which you are paying attention to. This is the Soumagne tunnel. You have spoken to me in the committee and I believe your concern is legitimate. I can tell you that after the advice of my services, I intervened with the Minister of Mobility, Mrs Durant, to relay your concerns and I believe that a concertation between us is absolutely indispensable.

This is, Mr. Speaker, the most important of the answers I wanted to make around and around this bill which is indeed important and urgent in each of its provisions, but especially with regard to emergency plans.

Mr. Speaker, for those colleagues who may not have yet reviewed the text and have not yet read the report, and who would still doubt whether there is a transfer of powers from the legislator to the executive power, literally, to the King, I recommend reading the heading of the report and the introductory explanation of the minister. I think the text is sufficiently complete. “On the other hand, the King must be authorized to determine the duties of the public fire services and those of the Civil Protection.” If it is not an order law which does not give the King special authority, then I understand nothing of it.

By the way, the approved text of paragraph 2 of article 2, Mr. Minister, reads: "The King determines by a decree fixed, and so on, the assignments respectively executed by ... forces, and so on". Even that, Mr. Minister, is not yet included in the law. Also for the respective assignment of the one and the other you refer to the King.

Mr. Minister, you should not blame me for this. We are at the end of the legislature. It is, I think, normal for the opposition to try to balance your policy, also in this area. Mr. Speaker, I can only say that the firefighters and especially the volunteers who take responsibility with great idealism for dangerous situations in which fellow citizens are in, feel — right! By being left in the cold. You have done nothing to regulate their status, let alone improve it. You are also unable, Mr. Minister, to make concrete decisions from the consultation you have attempted to organize. It is pure and only remained by trying. I regret that. These people, who make up the best in society, deserved better.