Proposition 52K1606

Projet de loi modifiant la loi du 16 novembre 1993 fixant la Liste Civile pour la durée du règne du Roi Albert II, l'attribution d'une dotation annuelle et viagère à Sa Majesté la Reine Fabiola et l'attribution d'une dotation annuelle à Son Altesse Royale le Prince Philippe et la loi du 7 mai 2000 attribuant une dotation annuelle à Son Altesse Royale le Prince Philippe, une dotation annuelle à Son Altesse Royale la Princesse Astrid et une dotation annuelle à Son Altesse Royale le Prince Laurent.

General information ¶

Submitted by

CD&V Leterme Ⅰ

Submission date

Nov. 24, 2008

Official page

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Status

Adopted

Requirement

Simple

Subjects

head of State

Voting ¶

Voted to adopt

Groen CD&V Vooruit Ecolo LE PS | SP Open Vld MR

Voted to reject

FN VB

Abstained from voting

N-VA LDD

Party dissidents ¶

• Peter Luykx (CD&V) abstained from voting.

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Discussion ¶

Dec. 11, 2008 | Plenary session (Chamber of representatives)

Full source

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker.

In his introductory presentation, the Minister of Finance insisted on the fact that the changes envisaged in this draft are not changes to the civil list within the meaning of Article 89 of the Constitution, which specifies that "the civil list is fixed for the duration of the reign" and that "the civil list cannot be assimilated to a treatment".

The Minister also recalled that the amounts of the civil list and the allocations of the various members of the royal family, which are included in the bill containing the general budget of expenditure for the financial year 2009, are significantly higher than those planned in 2008, given that these were fixed at a time when the rate of inflation was ⁇ high in our country.

The bill essentially provides that from 1 January 2009, the civil list and allocations will follow the indexation mechanism linked to the health index, which came into force only after the entry into force of the law that we propose to amend today.

The general discussion resulted in the conclusion with the commissioners of MR, CD&V, Open Vld, PS, Ecolo-Groen! and sp.a, according to which the government quickly faced the reactions of the population following the publication of the amounts allocated to the civil list and to the appropriations in 2009; they support the bill.

Some speakers also pointed out that the working group responsible for examining the problem of funding in the Senate has not yet achieved, but that it should be left to work in full serenity.

For the Vlaams Belang, the civil list, with or without indexation, remains source of dissatisfaction. It is purely and simply appropriate for them to remove it. He also announced the submission of several amendments in this regard.

The N-VA, even if it is in favor of the establishment of a republic, admits that, in anticipation of its realization, it is only necessary to put the financial means at the disposal of the head of state and its successor. It wishes, like Ecolo/Groen!, that this bill comes into force with retroactive effect and has submitted amendments in this direction.

For the Deputy Prime Minister, any proposed amendment to the Civil List must be considered serenely and designed for the future. In the past, appropriations were allocated during successive reigns according to different criteria set by Parliament, which in this regard makes a choice based on the circumstances of the moment. The government will therefore wait for the result of the working group in charge of this issue in the Senate.

As for the vote, the entire bill, including the legislative remarks, was adopted by eleven votes against two, with the various amendments introduced by the Vlaams Belang and the N-VA all being rejected.

Mrs. Rapporteur, you have rightly stated that we have pointed out in the committee that the form of state represented by N-VA is the republic – the most democratic form of state – and that for us the royal house can disappear as soon as possible. As long as there is no majority in this Chamber, the royal house continues to exist, and it is logical that those people will receive a certain reward for their innumerable efforts. Therefore, we are pleased that this government, under our pressure, finally adjusts the indexation of the dotations to the royal house.

However, the government is not consistent in this. Soon you will make the royal house a pleasure by allowing the adjustment to take place only on January 1, 2009, while the great rise in energy prices is situated in 2008, this year. In 2009, energy prices are likely to fall sharply due to the economic crisis that allowed the King to enjoy the sharp rise in 2008, but no effect to fear the sharp decline in 2009. So I won twice. Everyone feels the crisis today except the royal house. These people get a generous adjustment of their dotation. We are in favor of giving income support but not to one of the richest families in this country. For the N-VA, the grant may also this year be indexed with the index that applies to everyone and not with a doubled index. This is our first amendment.

The other amendments include greater transparency in the donations to the royal house and the phase-out of the donations to Princess Astrid and Prince Laurent. After all, with the mouth all Flemish parties have confessed for a long time that they want to see the entire financing adjusted. They confess with their mouth that they want transparency in the donations. The amendments we present today will save you all a lot of work. They especially save the committee in the Senate many meetings hours. We all know that senators can spend their time and energy much more usefully. Specifically for CD&V, they also save some internal disputes about who or not can sit in the committee. Thanks to the approval of our amendments, no one has yet to sit there and this matter has been settled immediately.

Mr. Annemans, I did not understand you.

This may cost you your ministry later.

I also know that I will never become a baron or a knight, a title that some people in this house still hope for. I have stored all the ambitions in that sense, including for the ministry you are talking about, for many years.

Colleagues, it is a pity that we have to seriously discuss our subsidized folk theatre. A great statesman once said, “The republic belongs to democracy like a turkey at Christmas.”I know that not everyone eats turkey at Christmas, but it belongs to the feast.

Sooner or later we will realize that the monarchy is a remnant of medieval states. Today, however, it remains its own Belgian cement, because one fears for autonomy and independence.

We will abstain from voting on the present bill, for the simple reason that it does mean a very small improvement. However, I ask you to approve the high urgency of our new bill. We have, in fact, submitted a new bill in this regard, whereby we do not wish to grant the king’s children, especially Astrid and Laurent, any more grants.

I grew up in a fairly large family. My father always told me that there is nothing dishonest in work. If someone has reached the blessed age of more than thirty or forty years and has a father who has knowledge and influence everywhere – for example in the Ministry of Finance, Mr. Reynders – then that father can still put his son in the service of the community and let him work, for example, in the Ministry of Finance. I don’t think you would refuse that to King Albert. Meanwhile, the conscious, sweet boy would put himself at the service of the community.

A television channel, VTM if I am not mistaken, has calculated what our prince strikes up every time he goes to battle. Well, last year, he took part in the fighting 32 times and for that, he pays 8,800 euros each, paid by the community. We are in times of crisis, which requires everyone to sow to the pocket. Prince Laurent must do that. In early 2008, we discussed his real estate in Sardinia. However, I wait for the balance sheet on December 31, 2008 to see if our friend Davignon – the man who had to save Fortis – would have also saved the prince’s fortune.

We have the same opinion for Princess Astrid. The seed did not fall on the rocks. She is married to a very wealthy Habsburg prince who in Switzerland has a governing mandate in a bank. He earns a franc in such a way that we should not use the taxpayer's money for those king's children.

We should do what is done in every civilized European country.

I wish King Albert would call his friend Beatrix of the Netherlands to ask her who of her children still gets money from the taxpayer. There is another, in particular Prince Willem-Alexander. All the others work, and there is even one working in Brussels.

He can also call England. In England, the same thing happens. Did you know that our Charel, therefore the crown prince, does not receive a donation from the population? Only the queen receives a donation and there is another straw for our Philip.

Here, here we have started inflation, thanks to our Verhofstadt in the year 2001. Probably also with Herman De Croo as chairman who may also have thought of his prince title. The title of prince will be too much, but baron may be. Armand the Decker. If he becomes baron, I recommend changing his name, because I ⁇ ’t want us to be associated with it, with a baron title.

So we invented inflation. Once in the whole Belgian history, in 1856, the king has been to the Parliament. He had a second son and that was also a Flupke. He was then Count of Flanders, a Philippe. He then asked for two hundred thousand gold francs for his second son of the family. This has happened once in all history. In 1999, Astrid had to join, and how is it in a jealous family? If one gets something, the other must have something too. In 2001, we then joined Prince Laurent.

We set up a working group in the Senate. We voted against that then, Mr. Verherstraeten. Even CD&V did not agree with this at the time, as regards Prince Laurent. The VLD did not agree to this either. There was then a notorious minister with sturm und drang, Vincent Van Quickenborne, who at that time had together with me submitted a bill to say that it was not possible that the king's children were given money. Today, our Vincent is, I think, the adviser of Prince Philippe, because the prince can no longer come out or Vincent must be with him. Last week the prince went to Indonesia and with whom in his kiss? with Vincent Van Quickenborne. If you can’t beat them, join them!

Take it seriously, my colleagues. What is in our bill? That we abolish the dotation to the two royal children who are not throne successors; Laurent was the eleventh in the series and I think now already the thirteenth; later it will be the sixteenth, but that does not matter. It also states that we are going to adjust the gift of Queen Fabiola a little to the reality. Fabiola is a widow. I have calculated that she receives a grant, a widow pension, which is 160 times greater than a normal widow pension. If there is an indexation, it is a net indexation. We talked about the measures to be taken. Well, if one gets 3 euros as a result of a wage indexation, then one can only put 1 euro on business, but if those people get an indexation of 5%, 4% or 6%, then that is net. Our Queen Fabiola has received 98,000 euros in a year period.

I can understand that a widow has certain needs in life, but getting 98,000 euros in a year, while we have to say here that there must be an adjustment for the people, I find a little of the good too much.

We therefore refrain from this bill. I sincerely hope that you will approve the high urgency for the new bill so that we can proceed to the actual repair of the subsidized folk theater. People need fairy tales and princesses. In a next phase, we may be able to go to a protocol role for the king, but so much suddenly we will not ask now.

Mr. Speaker, colleagues, the royal family costs the taxpayer more than 13 million euros in annually recurring grants and amounts from the civil list.

On November 15, the Day of the Dynasty, it was announced that this family would receive a storage of as much as 6% in 2009. Thus, even in times of crisis, the benefits for King Albert, Queen Fabiola, Prince Philip, Princess Astrid and also for the twelfth successor in line to the throne, Prince Laurent, would rise twice as fast as those of working subjects.

The indignation among the people was – rightly – very great. After that great wave of outrage, the government saw itself forced to intervene, not to fundamentally adjust the unjust system — unfortunately — nor to finally make the grant system transparent.

The government had to intervene urgently to find a sweetheart for the population. That sweet holder was found with this bill draft that ensures that the amounts of the civil list and the grants no longer increase based on the index of consumer prices, but from now on are linked to the health index.

It is touching that the majority parties here today declare that this adjustment is urgently needed and that, fortunately, everything has been able to go as quickly, while that same majority made it possible that in 2008, while the population was struggling with a great loss of purchasing power, an average of 5.3% already came to the generous - in every sense of the word - dotations.

For those who do not remember it well, at the end of March in this hemisphere, due to lack of budget 2008, the provisional twelve were approved. As for the timing of the budget, by the way, it is not always much better. We must approve the fiscal control for 2008 today, and we are close to 2009, but that is a discussion that we have just held.

With that vote of the preliminary twelve about eight months ago, a striking index jump of as much as 800,000 euros was approved.

That seems to me an index leap that the citizen looking for purchasing power can only dream of.

For those who still do not remember, those grants and the civil list formed then the exception to the general limit for provisional credits that they were valid for a maximum of 4 months. The cents for the royal family were then withdrawn by you for 9 months.

Meanwhile, all this has been forgotten. Suddenly we need to intervene. The urge to intervene is ⁇ great, but the intervention does happen in a bizarre way.

When this week the Senate Working Group for the Royal Dotations met, the expert who was heard, Professor Herman Matthijs, concluded that if one applied the Health Index now, in times of falling oil prices, the dotations would be at least as high as when applying the full index, and probably even higher.

In short, Mr. Dedecker, you say that this bill is an improvement. Indeed, it is an improvement for the royal family. Unlike the population, the royal house will be very grateful to you, colleagues, when you press the green button later, or the white button, which indicates a cowardly attitude. If you press those buttons: Congratulations, you are doing very well.

The Flemish Interest group does not participate in this crack, on the contrary. With our amendments, we want to abolish the entire opaque dotation system of the Belgian royal house once and for all.

I loved the humour of Mr. President. Dedecker when he spoke of subsidized popular theatre. Mr. MEP, I reassure you: there are other popular theatres subsidized in Belgium and you do not make it a whole movie!

We all agree that in times of crisis, an effort must be agreed by all, starting with the head of state and his family. It seems to me that the proposal made jointly by the King and the Government meets, in any case, partially with the will of the people.

That said, it is no coincidence that it is the extreme right and the extreme right that take the word on this topic! In fact, behind this hides the fetish smell of the Second World War. It is clear that by pronouncing the republic, it is a Flemish republic you want and not a Belgian republic.

Some already see themselves in a palace, probably located in Antwerp, leather boots and other things... and all this supposedly would no longer cost the country anything.

You need to learn a little history. The rescue of the royal house was at that time even – had we known it – done by the Flammers. If you know anything about the royal issue, you know that the royal house was expelled by the left in Wallonia. You have to learn history before you accuse. We saved the leaf of Boudewijn and Leopold III.

The truth is not entirely that! As a historian and a specialist in the Second World War, I know how devastating the devastation is.

The [...]

It is not so simple! In life, nothing is black or white. The republic is also very negative examples, such as Brejnev, Pinochet or Hitler. The royalties are symbols of democracy, such as Sweden, Denmark or Belgium! It should be clarified.

You are talking about knowing how to work. Everyone really needs to work. Every job deserves a salary and every salary deserves work. I agree with you. From this point of view, both His Majesty the King and most of his children show that they are working to advance the situation in our country.

I want to say something good about Pinochet. I know the history of the prince’s house, because I think that one must study his enemies very well before one says anything about them.

Did you know that Edward Corry, the former Ambassador of Canada to Chile, said – it was confirmed by Father Vekemans – that the predecessor, Eduardo Frei, who helped Pinochet to power, was supported by the Belgian prince house? You need to learn your history before you use very large words. It really happened. I will give you those papers. I will give you the historical data. Before you talk about left, right, and royal houses, you should also say something about it.

I will not go back to Pinochet. As a historian, I can have a discussion about this. I know they are your friends.

Pinochet was supported by the Belgian monarchy!

These are your claims!

and no! That is history!

Let me speak mr. by Flahaux!

This issue obviously disturbs you. The royal family is one of the cements of Belgium and this annoys you very much. As a historian, I would like to recall that Belgium would no longer exist if King Leopold I, uncle of Queen Victoria, had not made sure to prevent the dislocation of the country in 1848. I think of the famous episode of Risquons-Tout, which you probably know as much as I do. He renounced the German throne to remain king of the Belgians.

I have had the politeness of listening to you so have the politeness of listening to me too, even if it does not please you! I know that in the future republic you propose, we would not have the right to speak, but I would fight for that right if necessary!

False things have been said. I even heard that the Habsburg-Este family was ⁇ rich. I think you should review your knowledge on this subject.

You mentioned the fact that in Britain, Prince Charles was not paid. It is false! He lives from the profits of the Duchy of Cornwall which are much higher than a dotation. The truth has its rights.

Mr. Dedecker, wait a moment. Mr Flahaux will conclude his speech first.

To go back on this day, it’s somewhat easy for right-wing extremist groups to attack members of the royal family who are not there to defend themselves. I would like to point out that it was the representatives of the people who chose them in 1831 – and you were not there – and by a Flemish majority, we must not forget this. You will sort yourself between Flemish Flemish and French-speaking Flemish.

Returning to today’s proposal, we all agree to think about the future. by Mr. Jambon simply said that it is enough to adopt his proposal. This is simple and antidemocratic. A working group is set up that will work without taboo. This will be the famous white page. We are all aware that we are no longer in 1830 or 1880 and that the royal families must adapt to the situation of the day. We must be open in this matter.

I realize what the princes are doing, at least Princess Astrid, Prince Philip and his wife, who are also working for the good of Belgium, even if this does not please some of us. It is clear, however, that it will be necessary to think about what will happen for the next reign and revision of allocations down, of course. That said, I find it crazy that only the groups of the extreme right and the extreme right have spoken out while the royal family does an interesting and impeccable job. Remember the Knight King, King Albert, or King Baudouin and everything they brought to our Belgium.

Mr. Speaker, I want only to tell the respected historian who has now left the speaker's office that after 1830 there have been up to three municipal council elections in the city of Gent, where all seats went telkenmale to the oranges.

In 1831, on the birthday of our good King Willem I, the city of Sint-Niklaas sent a telegram to our good King Willem I and was promptly deposed by the democracy that you now defend here.

Mr. Speaker, Mr. Flahaux, it is we who have proposed that a committee in the House should work with the committee in the Senate in order to end that discussion as soon as possible. This was denied by, among other things, your representatives in the Bureau.

Second, I don’t know what the difference is between far-right and far-right, but we don’t feel touched by these titles.

Third, we have already seen you swing in this hemisphere with all possible flags. Today you have swung with the only real flag you represent, namely the old crumbled and scattered tricolor flag.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to add one thing. Mr. Flahaux, In 2001, a working group was established in the Senate which was then tortured by Armand De Decker. I think that man was the president. He never called this working group together. He is from your party, from your party.

Second, I have trouble getting a lesson in democracy from people who defend a system that indicates political power, that gives permission to rule over a country to people by birthright. This is the most undemocratic thing that exists in our society today.